LeForsTribe - Latest Comments in Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

leforstribe — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:54:34 -0000

Hello!! Welcome aboard!

If you go back up to the 3rd comment, in that section I explained on my view of head coverings. :-)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

Vacations in Israel — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:01:59 -0000

I'm curious about what is your view on headcoverings for women, Paul said they must wear them in synagogues or churches.
Thanks

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

LeForsTribe — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:29:12 -0000

Then I suppose in your opinion women are not obligied to know God and His Son because Paul said following after, "...and if they desire to learn...." IF. That's a choice right there. :-)

Thank you on the nice compliment.

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

deafevangelist — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:50:29 -0000

Hello

I wanted to comment on the passage found in I Tim 2:10-12 I believe.

The fact that Corinth and Ephesus had a problem with idolatry, female temple prostitutes, etc cannot be applied to this passage simple because Paul said "I DO NOT", which denotes universal practice, wherever he goes, this is the standard he follows, unrelated to the problems elsewhere. He says He DOES NOT permit women to teach men.

Of course, thats just my opinion. God bless, Keep up the good work.

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

Grace — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:38:13 -0000

Amazing history!! Thanks for sharing as always!! May YHWH bless you and your families.

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

leforstribe — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 05:06:16 -0000

Hello!

My pastor is not big on it-- but even if it happens, I just look over certain parts that are of traditions. He's always changing whenever the Holy Spirit touches him so I know if anything, He will hear YHWH on that.

The situation must have been extreme enough for Paul to use that word-authenteo. In the same church, a son was having sex with his father's wife-- that's bad.

Anyway-- thanks for sharing, i enjoyed it! :-)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

samechaleph — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:04:24 -0000

hi JuneAnn,

thanks for the infos about the church that you go to. It's wonderful that you know you're doing what YHWH wants :-) I wonder though, how do you cope about the church celebrating pagan festivities like Christmas and Easter? If the pastor preaches this, do you just overlook it? Sorry for the many questions and in a public arena like this, no need to answer if not comfortable. I don't go to any churches, just meet with my mother to talk about YHWH and Yahushua on shabbats and also with others in the eliyah chat room.

Thank you for sharing where I could find out the source about authentico (Catherine's website). I can see why it's not well-known because of the seemingly vulgarity of the word. Would Paul have chosen to use that kind of word? Seeing that there are other words that can be used, like seduction, fornication, etc, which were already used... still good info, because if that's the case, it would explain a lot of things.

I understand your point about continuing the sacrifices meaning Yahushua died in vain. How I see it, it's more like, if you want to continue in the sacrifices, that means you're remaining under the curse of the law... if you accept Yahushua's priesthood, that means you're on YHWH's side of grace. Both still valid, the earlier is fading away, (still here, but fading away), but the latter is eternal. Just typing out my thoughts here, could be wrong anyway. About Ezekiel, very difficult to understand :) It seems to say about the future when there will be sacrifices... I remember a discussion where someone said that the prophecies in Ezekiel are conditional, e.g. IF the Israelites obeyed, THEN this would have happened... but SINCE they didn't then this prophecy which Ezekiel wrote, didn't happen as a result. It's more like, "this is what could've been, had the children of Israel obeyed"..... but I don't know, really. :) There's a lot of possibilities and they're all different, so I just tend to try to understand everyone's view.

Thanks for sharing about the wool and linen, I understand what you mean. Good discussion there about the head covering. Looking forward to your "kata" research. I remember I did try to explain it from an Aramaic point of view translation, word by word, but it was still shaky, because my understanding of Aramaic is close to zilch lol.

Thanks for sharing :)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

leforstribe — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 08:44:23 -0000

Shalom!

Eric and I are Messianics--however we go to church on Sunday being that YHWH had called us to stay there. The church we go to is an AWESOME church--it's no where near dead--the faith is there and people live their lives as "daughters and sons of the King". They understand the Kingdom of YHWH but there are some traditions there. I just know that my family have not been commanded by YHWH to leave the "ekklesia" for another "ekklesia". We do honor the Sabbath at home and gather with people who do the same. We keep the festivals (still learning about other festivals beside Passover), and so on. I put "Christanity" so people out there will know we accept Yahushua and understand the NT of the Scriptures.

I only saw one of your comments. It's a good thing you kept trying because I only see the 4th one. LOL.

I would take in consideration the Genesis 3:16 verse as the law Paul was referring to. It still falls in the category of wives and husbands issue rather than man and woman, as an individual, and telling ALL women to remain silent in the churches. That's a good one. Thanks for bringing that to light. Of course, we know when YHWH said that, he did not mean it in a way of "power trip", but that the husband must take good care of the family-- "carry the torch". The pagan wives at the church were commanded to remain silent and I suppose the husbands would have to enforce that, "as the law says". My husband would in a instant tell me to "be quiet" if I stood up at any kind of convention and started yelling crazy stuff. :-D :-D

Google authenteo under Catherine Kroger (you will find some who will disagree with her, you will have to look through) http://www.godswordtowomen.org.... This website has Kroger's article. Access to Thesarus Lingae Graecae requires a CD, but they do have a website search. I couldn't find authenteo on the website but it is ON the CD.If you are able to find authenteo on that website, PLS do let me know. I would rather keep that one as a source.

Regarding to Laws: to continue to make sacrifice is to put Yahushua's death in vain. If anyone believes in Yahushua and still does sacrifices--that's a dishonor. I really do not know much about what happens during the 1,000 year reign. I always say to do what is right now and that in itself will take care of your future. Ha. I personally do not think there will be anymore animal sacrifices ever because Yahushua said, "It is finished". What did Ezekiel mean? I'm not sure. I will have to study on that. :-) You can tell me more on what you've learned. :-)

I have always percieved all of YHWH's laws to be good because of health-- to avoid harm or death. cotton will shrink, too. ha. Like for example, eating pork--science show proof that pigs were designed to filter the bad air, virus, flu, germs from the earth and hold it inside their bodies. In the same manner, vultures clean up the carcasses of the earth. Pigs clean up the air. When bad viruses get into the pigs (bird flu, any viruses, etc), the pigs have no problem holding it into their body, they will NOT pass it to the next animal or release it back to the earth's atmosphere. Now, when you kill a pig and cook it, the viruses do not go away at all. When you eat the meat off the pig, you are still eating the viruses. This is why so many people nowdays have cancer. Pigs were never designed for us to eat, just as much as eating a racooon. So, if YHWH instructed it, that's because he does not want us to harm our bodies. This brings me to wanting to figure out why, health-wise, wool and linen cannot be mixed.

About head covering, yeah I agree with you-- it was something women did back then--- 50 years ago, women wore hats to church. -- some of them were radically big. :-D What you shared about shaving and not shaving made much sense. The pinning up and pinning down is an interesting view. Yes, Diana had lots of gold and pearl braided up. This is also why Paul said that he wanted them to dress modestly (because Diana was a goddess of fertility in where women would dress seducively to get men to be aroused) and in the same passage not to get their hair all braided up and so on. It is only for that group. If I braided my hair, you would not see it that I was trying to seduce a man. :-D Even if Paul was talking about a pinning up your hair, it does not mean that all of the women today in this generation have to do the same because Paul said the church does not hold any customs.

The word "covered" in that passage does not say anything of hair. I researched a bit more about that greek word, "kata". It also can mean, "coming out of". I'll look more into it.

Shalom Shabbat!
JA

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

samechaleph — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:24:42 -0000

Shabbat shalom, June Ann, thanks for your comment.

Yes, when I saw two of my comments here, I typed out my third one, and as soon as it was published, one of the first two disappeared! Talk about instant solution! :-) HalleluYah.

Thanks for your input. I looked up more about the part where it says in 1Co 14:34

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

There are two possible solutions to this,

1. Barnes commentary seems to show the possibility of “obedience/also saith the law” referring to Gen 3:16 “…And your desire is for your husband, and he does rule over you.”

The other solution is what you shared:
1Co 14:33 For (YHWH) is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

What you shared do make sense though, because it seems the women were the authors of confusion, being prophetesses of Diana, and what they spoke were in opposition to the law… so they were commanded to be silent and to be “under obedience (e.g. to the law?) as also saith the law”. ,,, If they were under obedience to the law, then what they spoke will be obeying the law, and there will be no confusion.

I tried to google and locate references for the usage of the ancient word "authentico/authenteo" meaning seductively seducing, (letters written by catholic bishops) but I couldn't find any... do you know where I could locate them?

...

Regarding head coverings, thank you for sharing, I enjoyed reading your input. I’m not well-read in ceremonial/moral laws, here is my understanding of it so you know where I stand on it:

All YHWH’s laws still stand as long as we have heaven and earth, (this is what Yahushua said, not one jot or tittle shall pass). I think the sacrifices, etc, still continue for those wishing to follow them. However for us, we bypass this because of the Melchisedek promise in Yahushua, and/or Yahushua Himself is our eternal sacrifice, so the sacrifice part still carries on in Yahushua.

I’m still not clear on this though, because Ezekiel seems to say that the sacrifices will return, even with Yahushua (or King David?) reigning with us for 1,000 years (unless I got it wrong).

About wool with linen, my assumption is that if the materials are different then it will cause different aging/shrinking/stretching processes so that the clothes are not durable. If it is just one material only for clothing, it might mean lasting wear for the clothes. I could be wrong though… YHWH saying “do not mix wool with linen” could be just simple wisdom, like “put parapet around roof tops” so that no one will be injured. Or as you shared, it could have deeper meaning or scientific reasons.

I agree with you nowhere in the law it says women must wear head covering. Except for the part in Num 5:18 where the jealous husband brings his wife to the head priest in the temple, and the priest uncovers the wife’s head. From this verse, most people assume that it is customary that women wore headcoverings back then, especially when entering in YHWH’s temple, and it applies to today’s churches/synagogues… but I agree with you nowhere does it say women are instructed to wear headcoverings in the first place. If it is important that they wear one in YHWH’s presence in His temple, surely He’d have said so in the first place while introducing all his teachings to Moses.

I did a research on this and came across a JSTOR article, it explained that the ancient hebrew words in this verse 18 for “uncover the woman’s head” were “para et ha rosh” and according to ancient customs the author researched, the words “para et ha rosh” could be interpreted as “shave the head” instead of “uncover the head” ... the latter being ambigous. if it was indeed “shave the head” then it would explain for no headcovering instructions back then, because there were no headcovering laws to begin with.

For 1 Corinthians 11, I see one problem with “uncovered” meaning bald hair, is that the below verses will not make sense, for example:

1Co 11:5 And every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered (bald head) brings shame to her head (husband), for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved (how? Her head is already bald).

If “uncovered” means “no long hair”, the below verses will also not make sense:

1Co 11:5 And every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered (no long hair) brings shame to her head (husband), for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not covered (no long hair), let her also be shorn (how? No long hair means her hair is probably shorn or shaved already). But if it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered (with long hair).

Perhaps the possible solution is “uncover” = hair pinned up? e.g.

1Co 11:5 And every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered (hair pinned up) brings shame to her head (husband), for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not covered (hair pinned up), let her also be shorn. But if it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered (hair hanging down).

Perhaps the prophetesses of Diana wore their hairs up, braided and pinned up, elaborately?
It could also explain 1 Tim 2:9 about not having braided hair, because that is what the prophetesses wore, and Paul is trying to distance the believing women's appearance as far away from them, so that the men can identify who is for YHWH and who is not... a bit similar to YHWH asking the children of Israel not to shave the corners of their beards (e.g. showing goatees) because that was what (I assume) the pagans around them wore... the men obeyed and wore beards, and this stood them out from the other pagan nations...?

The other solution is “cover” = cloth covering the head, e.g.

1Co 11:5 And every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered (no cloth covering) brings shame to her head (husband), for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not covered (no cloth covering), let her also be shorn. But if it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered (with cloth covering).

I remember talking with Tom over at EliYah.com about this, and he brought up that the Greek Septuagint mentioned Haman being mortified about Mordechai being honoured, that he went and covered himself with a headcovering, using the same greek word being used here… so this verse is probably talking about a cloth hair covering. I am not sure.

Please do share more, I am very interested in your thoughts on this and enjoy discussing this topic :-)

Thank you and have a blessed sabbath.

Susan

p.s. this is the umm, fourth time I've tried to leave a comment, it keeps disappearing when I refreshed the page! :( hopefully it'll show up this time. I also left another comment recently (doesn't seem to show), I was wondering about you and Eric being both Christian and Messianics... whether you keep the Sabbath or not, because your church's information shows only of Sunday gatherings and none of Sabbath... what do they think about the Sabbath? Just curious, thanks :-) (hope this one stays in your website!) :-)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

missylasku — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:06:27 -0000

Sis JuneAnn
thank you sooo much for sharing this... this sure helps! Blessing to have you the gift you have from our Yeshua in doing this and share this! Again thank you!
love watching you teach and share His Stories!
sis
missy

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

seoworkgroup1 — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:26:43 -0000

Nice post. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

leforstribe — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 06:53:38 -0000

Hello Susan,

I only see one of your comment here, I guess you managed to delete one yourself? :-) And, sure, I'll tell eric to check your comment over at DVTV. (He's at football camp now--coaching HS football team).

In regards to the law--I agree with you, no where do I see in the Mosiac Law it says that women must be submissive to men, **edit** however, the situation is different when it comes to marriage. But man and woman as an individual, nothing in the Mosiac Law.

I do see in Chapter 18 of Leviticus where it describes different sexual behaviors that are an abdomination to YHWH and at the end it says to completely refrain from those pagan behaviors. I would presume this is the law that Paul was referring to since there were sexual immoralities in the church. **edit** I have not yet pinpointed exactly what law Paul was actually referring to (there's 613 of them).

Shalom!

***edit** I forgot to talk about women headcoverings. Forgive me if it is long.

Paul never said they must wear them as many think. He never used the word submission (the situation is different when it comes to "marriage". This context is talking about a man and a woman as an individual). Paul only said "head", which is a metaphor of "cornerstone". A cornerstone means "the chief foundation on which something is constructed or developed". Strong Concordance #G2776. It also has a definition of, "chief, prominent".

First before all this, let's go to seeing what YHWH commanded in his Law in regards to clothings. You and I know (I presume) that the Law is divided into two groups: Ceremonial and Moral. The Ceremonial part of the Law have been fulfilled by Yahushua. The only thing I see in the Law where YHWH instructs his people on clothes are:

1) "do not mix wool with linen" (Leviticus 19:19),
2) "wear tassels on the corner of their garments" (Number 15:38-39).

I categorize these under the ceremonial law, which have been fulfilled by Yahushua because YHWH has already written the law in our heart. I have the Ruach Ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit) dwelling in me. I am the temple of the Ruach Ha Kodesh.

I still cannot figure out why wool and linen being interwoven is not good. Science is showing a possible proof that the two materials, when put together, will release some kind of chemicals that are not good for the skin. I still do not know, though.

No where do I see in the Mosiac Law it states that a woman must wear a material headcovering, instead, in the new covenant, I see that YHWH has given woman a hair as her glory. It's just something as a glory for a woman.

The problem with the Corinthians Church is heresay (false teaching from pagan worshippers: we know it's the Oracle of Delphi pagans that had a big influence to the Corinth church.)

Paul says in the beginning of 1 Corinthians 11:

"Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you..." v. 2 (Notice Paul says "traditions"--"ordiance" used in KJV-- it can mean traditions. They are not commandments.)

Tradition can easily mean something of that time. We also see again in the same chapter where Paul says we really don't hold any customs. "But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of YHWH." v. 16

The Corinthians church was also confused who came first: Adam or Eve-- we see that Paul explained the "head" thing in the beginning of the chapter, verse 3: "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Yahushua, the head of woman is man, and the head of Yahushua is YHWH."

When Paul says the word "head", he can mean "cornerstone". He can also mean "chief". I really believe Paul was referring to cornerstone, but either way can work. YHWH is the cornerstone of Yahushua. YHWH is also the chief of Yahushua. Man is the cornerstone of a woman. It is out of the man that came a woman.

verses 4 -7 explains that if a man and a woman swapped positions, it would be a dishonor. It's a spiritual sense. Yahushua would not swap position with YHWH. A man and a woman do not swap positions. They are two different creatures. Man was created first and out from him came a woman.

then we see in verse 8, Paul explains that a woman came out of man (in which Adam was formed first, then Eve. The Corinthians church didn't know that truth since the Oracle of Delphi teaches a religion that is the opposite- woman formed first then out of her a man.)

verses 9-12, the man and the woman really work together. It's a team work thing as you would see between a President and a Vice-President. They work together but have different roles. ( ie: A woman bears children whereas a man does not.) And it does mention that it is for the sake of the.....angels. (Perhaps something to do with Lucifer trying to go over YHWH??)

verses 13-15: Paul says to judge for yourselves. We still do have a bit of that influence nowdays. A long hair on a woman is beautiful to many and a woman with bald head is strange to many. It's a cultural thing. A unkept man (with long unmaintained beard and hair) is often percieved differently than a man who is shaven and well kept.

then in verse 18, Paul points out that he believes that there is divisions among the church due to heresay. "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it."

A material head covering is only a culture thing. Something that started later in the Scriptures and many women wore them, but that's not what Paul was talking about. He never said to use a material head covering. Look at the Greek word "kata", which Paul uses for the word "cover". The definition for "kata" (cover) says nothing of a material covering the head. The definition of the covered word are:

1) down from, through out
2) according to, toward, along

The Corinth church had an issue with Oracle of Delphi Temple in which they were teaching that women were created first and recieved a special knowledge to eat the fruit. (You can goggle about their teachings) Paul made a clarification on who was created first. We know that's Adam, not Eve.

It's a spiritual sense...It's a matter of order of who was formed first, (not cloth material).

Shalom, again! :-)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

Susan — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:11:46 -0000

I posted twice by accident... pls delete one if you can :)

Re: Women: Created To Remain Silent? (Corinthians and Timothy)

Susan — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:10:15 -0000

Hi June Ann, I enjoyed watching your vlogs at DVTV, their comment system isn't up so here am I... very interesting information you shared, most of which I did not know.
Just a few things that got me baffled, perhaps you can help out here, it is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, the part where Paul said, "as the law says"... the greek word is "nomos" and commonly used for Mosiac law... but I could not find any place in the OT where it says women must be submissive... Abraham's wife, Sarah wasn't happy about Hagar and wanted her out of the place... Abraham was angry with Sarah, but YHWH told him to listen to her... also, Abigail went behind Nabal's back to give food to King David (before he became a King)... both these women weren't "submissive" but outspoken and did right things even if their husbands mightn't like it. Any chance you might know about "as the law says" ?
Also, I'm curious about what is your view on headcoverings for women, Paul said they must wear them in synagogues or churches.
Thanks, I will chew more and research on what you have just shared, very interesting information :-)
By the way, my comment is now working under Eric's vlog, could you ask him if he could see it, thanks (it didn't work before).
Susan